Do Mars' Lagrange Points Exist Near Phobos and Deimos? (2024)

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In summary, the Sun-Mars L1 and L2 points are unstable and nothing of any size would be located there. However, you can put a space station or a satellite around either one, and keep it there artificially with periodic application of thrust.

  • #1

Dr Wu

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I'm trying to find out if Mars has any Lagrange Points - L1 and L2 specifically. A lengthy trawl through Google's webpages suggest that they may exist, although if so they would be extremely close to Mars, being gravitationally bound by Phobos and Deimos. Is this true?

PS. Should Mars indeed have L1 & L2 at greater distances than suggested above, what sort of distances might these be?

  • #2

Dr Wu

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Yes, I forgot to mention that the above query is tied up with my writing - hence it being placed in Physics Forums' SF category.

  • #4

CalcNerd

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Both L1 and L2 do exist, but they are not stable ie the probability of anything there is close to zero. Certainly nothing large enough to observe, perhaps some small debris. L4 and L5 probably have something as Mars is fairly close to the asteroid belt and has probably picked up some smaller asteroids that tag along at those two points. Jupiter certainly has them, and any moons, asteroids, or rocks at the L4 or L5 locations are called Trojan satellites.
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Bandersnatch's question is valid, but the points "Mars and its satellites" he is referring to are definitely unstable and nothing (of any size) would be there. Actually the one of the two moons is already inside the Roche limit and if the moon was any larger, it would be torn apart.

  • #5

Dr Wu

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Re. Bandersnatch: Yes, I did mean the Sun-Mars Lagrange points, not those of Mars' two satellites. I should have made this distinction clearer.

Re. CalcNerd: Hmm, I was planning to (fictitiously) locate an orbiting space station at the Sun-Mars L2 Point, but only if the distance was sufficiently great enough - i.e. something approaching Earth's L2 Point. I hadn't considered instability issues until now. On reflection, I'm more than happy to relocate to Mars' trailing L5 Trojan Point, which I understand is occupied by the asteroid 'Eureka'. I say 'relocate' because I had considered this option once before, but backed off after failing to ascertain both L4 and L5's distances from Mars. The Wikipedia article on Eureka, however, has resolved this issue by citing a distance that varies between 1.3 - 1.8 AU, both of which lie well within the 'comfort zone' as far as they apply to my present (literary) needs.

Many thanks for jolting me in the right direction :)

  • #6

Bandersnatch

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The Sun-Mars L1 and L2 are located approx. 1 million kilometers from Mars. They are, as was said, long-term unstable, so you won't find any natural object orbiting there. But you can still put a satellite or a space station around one (likely on a Lissajous orbit), and keep it there artificially with periodic application of thrust.
I don't know how much delta-v is needed, how often, to keep stuff there, but it'll certainly be a bigger problem for larger masses. Depending on hardness of your s-f you could just entirely handwave it, or mention some unspecified on-board ion (or whatever) thrusters that are used for station keeping.

  • #7

Dr Wu

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Personally speaking, I'm reluctant to handwave anything at all if I can possibly help it. Still, there's a limit to what might be described as hard-nosed SF and there's been several occasions in the past when I've had to hold my nose and engage in a spot of handwaving - if only to keep things moving. Certainly, the periodic attitude thrusts by a slowly revolving space station would be a convincing enough solution. I gather the ISS has to do this from time to time in order to maintain its orbital path round the Earth, likewise the HST. Well, if it works in reality, why not in fiction?

Related to Do Mars' Lagrange Points Exist Near Phobos and Deimos?

1. What are the Lagrange Points of Mars?

The Lagrange Points of Mars are five specific points in space where the gravitational pull of Mars and the Sun are balanced, allowing objects to maintain a stable position relative to the planet.

2. Why is the study of Mars' Lagrange Points important?

Understanding the Lagrange Points of Mars can help us to better navigate spacecraft and satellites in orbit around the planet. These points also offer unique locations for potential future missions, such as space telescopes or fuel depots.

3. How were Mars' Lagrange Points discovered?

French mathematician Joseph-Louis Lagrange first predicted the existence of these points in the 18th century. They were later confirmed by NASA's Mariner 4 spacecraft in 1965.

4. Are there any missions currently studying Mars' Lagrange Points?

Yes, NASA's MAVEN (Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution) spacecraft is currently orbiting in the L1 Lagrange Point of Mars, studying the planet's atmosphere and interactions with the solar wind.

5. How do the Lagrange Points of Mars differ from Earth's?

Mars' Lagrange Points are located in slightly different positions compared to Earth's due to the planet's smaller size and weaker gravitational pull. Additionally, Mars' two moons, Phobos and Deimos, can also affect the location and stability of these points.

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                      Do Mars' Lagrange Points Exist Near Phobos and Deimos? (2024)

                      FAQs

                      Do Mars' Lagrange Points Exist Near Phobos and Deimos? ›

                      Yes, the Martian moons have Lagrange points. They're very close to the surface of the moons, close enough that a tether of just a few kilometers' length is needed to get to the surface. Super easy place to build space elevators (a demo might even fit in a cubesat!).

                      Does Mars have Lagrange points? ›

                      The five Lagrange points exist in the same relative positions around all major bodies in our Solar System, where one body orbits a more massive body. So, there are Lagrange points in the Earth-Sun system, the Mars-Sun system, the Jupiter-Sun system, and so on.

                      Are Phobos and Deimos visible from Mars? ›

                      Both Phobos and Deimos are visible from the martian surface. Phobos is much brighter, as it is both physically larger and orbits much closer to the planet than Deimos.

                      Does the Moon have Lagrange points? ›

                      These five points are mirrored in other pairs of bodies. For example, the Earth-moon system has its own set of Lagrange points.

                      How far away is Lagrange Point 4? ›

                      The L4 and L5 Lagrangian points of the Earth-Moon system are located at ~400 000 km from the Earth, while the L2 point of the Earth-Sun system is at a distance of ~1.5 x 106 km. The baseline is a Lissajous orbit around the L2 Lagrangian point of the Earth-Sun system.

                      What is the L1 point of Mars? ›

                      L1 and L2 for the earth/sun is 1.5 million km, L1 and L2 for mars/sun is 2.2 million km. L1 is between the planet and the sun, L2 is on the opposite side of the planet furthest from the sun.

                      Do galaxies have Lagrange points? ›

                      So if you have two galaxis orbiting their common center of mass, there will be five Lagrange points where something significantly less massive can stay in position relative to the galaxies.

                      Is Phobos getting closer to Mars? ›

                      It whips around Mars three times a day, while the more distant Deimos takes 30 hours for each orbit. Phobos is gradually spiraling inward, drawing about six feet (1.8 meters) closer to the planet each century.

                      Is Phobos tidally locked to Mars? ›

                      Phobos is tidally locked to Mars, like Earth's moon is locked to Earth, thus always showing the planet only one side. As a result, the rocks on the near side of Phobos have been bathed for millennia in Martian atoms and molecules.

                      Which is closer Phobos or Deimos? ›

                      Phobos orbits closer to Mars, with a semi-major axis of 9,377 km (5,827 mi) and an orbital period of 7.66 hours; while Deimos orbits farther with a semi-major axis of 23,460 km (14,580 mi) and an orbital period of 30.35 hours.

                      Are there only 5 Lagrange points? ›

                      There are five special points where a small mass can orbit in a constant pattern with two larger masses. The Lagrange Points are positions where the gravitational pull of two large masses precisely equals the centripetal force required for a small object to move with them.

                      Which Lagrange point is James Webb? ›

                      The James Webb Space Telescope orbits the Sun near Sun-Earth Lagrange point 2 (L2), approximately 1.5 million kilometers (1 million miles) from Earth.

                      In which of the planets do Lagrange points occur? ›

                      For any combination of two orbital bodies, there are five Lagrange points, L1 to L5, all in the orbital plane of the two large bodies. There are five Lagrange points for the Sun–Earth system, and five different Lagrange points for the Earth–Moon system.

                      What is the most stable Lagrange point? ›

                      Of the five Lagrange points, three are unstable and two are stable. The unstable Lagrange points - labeled L1, L2 and L3 - lie along the line connecting the two large masses. The stable Lagrange points - labeled L4 and L5 - form the apex of two equilateral triangles that have the large masses at their vertices.

                      Is there anything at L3 Lagrange point? ›

                      L3 is the Sun–Earth Lagrange point located on the side of the Sun opposite Earth, slightly outside the Earth's orbit. Direct communication with spacecraft in this position is blocked by the sun. There are no known objects in this orbital location.

                      Is Hubble at a Lagrange point? ›

                      Hubble is in a very close orbit around the earth, while Webb will be 1.5 million kilometers (km) away at the second Lagrange (L2) point.

                      Does Mars wobble on its axis? ›

                      Earth and Mars have some surprising similarities. Two plucky NASA spacecraft found that Mars is wobbling in its rotation just like Earth, potentially telling us more about the search for life on the Red Planet.

                      Does Mars have U shaped valleys? ›

                      The absence of these U-shaped valleys means that ice sheets on Mars likely moved and eroded the ground under them at extremely slow rates compared to what occurs on Earth.

                      Does Mars have a stable tilt? ›

                      Unlike Earth, the obliquity (or tilt) of Mars changes substantially on timescales of hundreds of thousands to millions of years. At present day obliquity of about 25-degree tilt on Mars' rotational axis, ice is present in relatively modest quantities at the north and south poles (top left).

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